The author says this cooler has best noise/thermal performance ratio, but looking at the graphs the CoolerMaster H110 seems to have both lower noise level and lower thermal resistance?
Yeah, I am really not getting the need for water cooling these days. Today's Core i5/i7 CPU run extremely cool... Even if you are overclocking, there are little to no benefits of using water. It adds complexity with no benefit. I have a Core i5 Skylake with a BeQuiet shadow rock 2 cooler, and I dont even plug in the fan at all. I can run prime - 100% CPU utilization for hours and hours with no fan at all and it doesn't even get warm, not even a little... and I live in Arizona and its summer. There just isnt a need for water anymore, even if you are overclocking the hell out of it.
Think about people still rocking a good old FX8350 like me ;)
And AIO watercooling still happens to be competitive in high perf / small cases (typically mini ITX) setups, where clearance around the CPU is often very limited (typically, the PSU is in the way and forbids anything but very low-profile coolers), but can fit 1 or 2 12cm fans.
Agreed, if you have an AMD CPU, you can benefit from water cooling. Some high end video cards as well... but AMD CPU's and high end video cards get hot as hell. My comment was on Intel CPU's. I would have a hard time recommending anyone buy an AMD CPU these days, regardless of the cooling used. Hopefully the upcoming Zen processor changes that. It would be great to go AMD again if they can be competitive.
edit: and Intel power consumption climbs up if you get into the more high-end platforms (like the X79/X99 platforms). Especially on tinier mainboards (think: mini ITX X99 ones) where you don't have standard cooler mounting holes but the special I-can't-remember-the-name ones. In those cases, big coolers don't fit. But a waterblock happily does.
I dont know... My core i5 6600k cooled as described above is a Mini itx case. Even if it were a smaller case, with no room for a huge tall cooler, there are options that work great.
It depends on your case. And as explained, your i5 is not realy an "enthusiast" CPU, even if it's a great CPU in itself. And the options that work great in more confined cases... Do not work quite as great as your typical AIO watercooling system, even if those have difficulties getting significantly better results than average-to-high-end aircooling systems.
It's a niche, yes. But I wouldn't say this niche doesn't exist.
Agreed, in some cases water would be better, AIO cases is a good example... But if you buy an AIO with water cooling, it comes pre-built and you dont do anything with it... The product above would not be for that. Also, if you have an older system you want to keep and improve the old air cooler, it might be good too depending on what you have... I guess what I am getting at, is if you were putting together a new system as of today (as opposed to upgrading an older one) you would be better served to by a case and an air cooler. They have tons of options of all sizes. Let me put it another way, if were building a new system as of today and you chose parts (case and CPU) that would benefit from water cooling, you probably chose badly.
When I say "AIO", I mean "AIO liquid cooler" (such as in this review), not "AIO computer" ;)
And no, cases that cannot fit a good air rad (so limit the choice to either low profile rads or AIO liquid cooler) simply allow you to have a more compact PC, so they are not a bad choice, they answer different needs.
Got it... I am paying attention LOL ;) I do see your point, I just dont think alot of people have that need. Like I said, if today (and that today part is a key thing here) were building a system, I cant see picking any case and CPU that would require something like the product above. If you are into massive overclocking, a tiny mini ITX case that cant fit a normal size air cooler probably isnt the best choice. There are plenty of mini ITX cases that can fit air coolers of any size and need. If you are overclocking and need something really small that cant fit a full size air cooler, OK... But if that is the case someone chose, where would they put the radiator? I know there are answers to that question and ways to do it, but extreme niche is what I am hearing.
Agreed, but I guess my point is any compact Mini ITX case can fit an air cooler that is very capable. There are also plenty of good Mini ITX cases that fit full size coolers. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
Yes, but most of todays high end air coolers are just as capable and they do it without adding the need for water, the placement of a radiator or the additional potential fail-point (and noise point) of a water pump.
Yeah, the Noctua NH-U14S cools just as well as the best AIO water coolers, but beats them by being much quieter on top of that since there's no pump noise. Zero risk of leaks is a bonus too!
I use a NH-U14S with an OC'd 6700K that runs all 4 cores at 4GHz. The highest temp I can hit with any stress test is about 30C over ambient (~55C).
This AT review had a noise floor of 30 dBA, while the Noctua with its adapter maxes out at 19 dBA according to their spec (and is far lower using PWM). I have to doubt a water cooler can get anywhere near this low, which is critical for my silent box.
LOL. Using water-cooling on a CPU? You all gobbled up the marketing; you still believe in in 1990s ATX case design.
GPUs need the water, not the CPU. 250W+ on load, using 9cm fans? Average load temps in the 70s with overclocking and overvoltage? Right, yes, put the water cooler on the CPU. :p
Abandon ATX cooling assumptions; it was meant for cooling Pentium 4's and 3.5" spindle disks.
From what I've read you are right about this. My question would be - given that air CPU coolers vent/radiate their hot air into the case, as do graphics cards (open air designs at least) would it not be beneficial to have an AIO liquid cooler drawing in air from the case (it being warm shouldn't affect the CPU cooling too much as like you said, most units are more than capable) and venting it out of the case?
Would this not provide a benefit to the temp of the case and therefore the cooling abilities of the graphics card (particularly if running SLI)? And doesn't it make sense to have the CPU do this given that cooling options are much more widely available for them and at less of a premium than GPU water cooling?
AIO coolers are still very much needed these days especially in a smaller form factor where air flow is not as great as in a larger case. I personally think that air coolers have reached their EOL. There is no need for a big chunk of metal to sit on top of your motherboard especially when nowadays you can buy an excellent AIO that is reasonably priced, quiet, cools better, and looks aesthetically more pleasing, and its painless to install.
there used to be a time when AIOs used to be so much more money, kind of like how it is now if you want to jump into a custom loop. There is a price to performance ratio that needs to be addressed. But as far as closed loops, some of them are almost just as inexpensive as an air cooler and providing much more benefits.
I dont think so... When talking about building a new system, we are talking Intel Skylake CPU. Anything running a Skylake is already cool as hell. There are some great small form factor cases and premade systems, as small as Lenovo Tiny Desktop that are running quad core i5 and i7 desktop processors. They are a little over 1 inch thick and dont even get hot. You would only need it if you had both a really thin/small case AND you were significantly overclocking it... Now if you bought a good enough motherboard to significantly overclock it, what case are you getting that is too small to fit a decent air cooler, but big enough where it can still fit a decent power supply that can handle significant overclocking and even a small AIO water cooler? Where is the radiator in this setup? Is it outside the case?
...there are strong ITX overclocking motherboards. You don't need 1kW to OC; even SFX PSUs are in the 700W range, more than enough for dual-GPU OC + 8-core CPU OC.
I get that, but still what is the point? If you are overclokcing to that level, you probably arent using a tiny case. If you are, that fine, but again I ask - Where is the radiator in this setup? Is it outside the case?
I'm running a tri-fire and 6core CPU. I should have a custom loop on the GPU's, but... whatever, they're too old now to drop that much money into them. Full load is close to 1000W - it's potentially a lot of heat, but radiator's are in the case, with a lot of airflow. GPU's hit 80 degrees and CPU's @60.
I think mainstream computers/CPU's don't need liquid, at all. If you're running an enthusiast build/HEDT then I think it's almost necessary. My CPU draws almost 230W at full load - I didn't bother putting an air cooler for noise issues.
"I personally think that air coolers have reached their EOL. There is no need for a big chunk of metal to sit on top of your motherboard especially when nowadays you can buy an excellent AIO that is reasonably priced, quiet, cools better, and looks aesthetically more pleasing, and its painless to install"
I can't agree with you at all on this. If we consider the three key metrics we can quantify being price, noise and thermal performance; air coolers objectively beat AIO water coolers by a significant margin. Entry level water coolers like the H60 are more expensive, hotter and louder than a wide range of air coolers, and perform terribly compared to similarly priced air towers (H60 prices take you into mid-range air cooler territory). Once you move up a tier to high end air coolers like the NH-D15, you need to spend far more money to get a similarly performing AIO. There are 240mm closed loop water coolers that appear to offer superior thermals for close to the $100 mark, but they do so by using hair-dryer like fans. If you want D15 performance from water and care at all about noise levels, you need to be prepared to spend a lot of money.
There are absolutely benefits to AIO water coolers: stress-free portability, RAM compatibility and potential to use in smaller cases. But, if you care primarily about getting the highest performing and quietest CPU cooler for your dollar, air still wins every time.
I bought an H55 for $25, an H110 for $55, and H100i gtx for $75, a thermaltake water 2.0 performer for $20, a thermaltake 240mm water 2.0 for about $50...over the past 4 or so years. Yes not everyday prices, but newegg sales, microcenter open boxes, etc. Like I said, no need for an air cooler anymore. Corsair even goes as far as covering your components if your cooler for whatever reason breaks and takes some other components with it. The latest cooler I bought is the corsair h100i gtx for $75. My overclocked core i7 4770k 4.6ghz sits at 25C and 40ish when gaming in a corsair air 240 case. The pump is in "quiet mode". I can't hear the fans or the pump so I m happy. Also $75 is not a lot of money for a CPU cooler when a high end air cooler is almost just as much.
So this Eteknix review paints quite a different picture of that cooler you linked: http://www.eteknix.com/arctic-liquid-freezer-120-a... A full 14 degrees hotter than the D15 on an OC'd CPU (3570K) at 1.35V. Acoustics are still great, but temps, while fine, are hardly world beating. In fact they suggest 1.35V on an i5 is asking a bit too much of this 120mm cooler.
My issue with the HardOCP review is that the biggest load they put that cooler under is a 4.4Ghz OC on a 4770K at a measly 1.25V. That's just not enough to push any half decent cooler. Obviously it's got a great price and is really quiet, so would be a good choice for lots of people looking for a mild OC, but if all you want is a 1.25V mild OC, another valid option would be a cheap air cooler for $25?
I'm not saying AIO coolers don't have a place, clearly they do. But to say they make air coolers "EOL" is just not accurate IMHO.
Also, maybe ditch the BM next time? I expect better from comments here at Anandtech.
What you're missing about water cooling might be the fact that water cooling setups are WAY more convenient than some of the better air solutions out there. I can show you a nook in my one cupboard where I have some of the best air coolers around (Tuniq Tower, Antec CNPS 10X, Thermalright Silver Arrow, the list goes on). The problem with air? First is the weight it puts on the motherboard (which is a particular concern if you move your computer regularly). Second is the fact many high-end air coolers interfere with the ram slots, depending on the cooler / motherboard combo you happen to be using, and whether or not your ram happens to have taller than average heat sinks.
The perfect solution? An AIW water cooling setup. There is no motherboard stress worth mentioning, and I have GOBS of clearance for literally any ram I choose to use, regardless of where or how it's oriented on the board. I have a pretty stout system (i7 4790k, stock clocks) but it's not always about overclocking ability or raw cooling potential, sometimes it's about pure logistics.
While water may be more convenient, it's also more expensive for a similar performance tier. And it's not like low profile RAM is hard to find or has any real drawbacks. Air certainly puts more weight on the motherboard, but it doesn't introduce liquid to the system. So while water is likely safer for a portable system, I'd suggest air is the safer bet for a static PC.
Clearly you'd prefer to spend more or sacrifice cooling performance for system portability and RAM compatibility... that's fine, there's heaps of situations where that's the right call. But there's undoubtedly a place on the market for the superior performance per dollar that air coolers offer.
" Second is the fact many high-end air coolers interfere with the ram slots, depending on the cooler / motherboard combo you happen to be using" - You may have a point if you are upgrading an older system and therefore stuck with particular existing parts, but if you are building a new system you can build a better cooled system for cheaper with a good air cooler.
He should have said best noise/thermal performance for 240mm radiators. Because larger radiator and larger fans will always win in this metric. (H110 is a 280mm)
Pass on the water cooling. I don't like the idea of mixing liquid and electricity for no tangible benefit over the HSF that was included in the box. Yes, sure the temperature of the processor is lower, but who cares really? As long as it's not above the manufacturer's spec, temperature makes literally no difference to me. I can understand wanting to cut back on noise and that might warrant an upgraded air cooler over the retail boxed one, but even then, a lot of the reasoning behind that ignores ambient noise of HVAC, other people, and blaring televisions which would drown out the relatively small amount of noise from a stock cooler.
Why are you even reading this review? LOL. It's like a guy who drives a Camry walking into an aftermarket parts store: "A turbocharger? I don't like the idea of mixing more air. Sure, the horsepower is higher, but who cares really?"
Wrong review and maybe even wrong website, dude. :D
What is it with men and comparing everything to a car? Is it really that ingrained into the brain wiring that guys who were given little toys to push around as toddlers that then grow into grade school students who drive imaginary cars down the hallway while making engine sounds with their mouths end up seeing their world as adults through the view of a windshield? Nah nevermind, let's not delve into psychology here, it'd be a waste of time.
Anyway "dude," have you read many articles on this site? AT doesn't cater specifically to the audience you think it does and perceive that you fall within. In my opinion, that's one of the nice things about Anandtech. It's writers explore a wider range of technology in greater depth than do the dinosaurs of the desktop computer era that have yet to realize that overclocking and tinkering is now well controlled by hardware manufacturers that manage even that experience to the point where it's basically a walled off sandbox that only leaves buyers with the impression their extra expenditure is giving them something more rather than genuinely rewarding them with something worthwhile.
What is it with men and comparing everything to a car? Is it really that ingrained into the brain wiring that guys who were given little toys to push around as toddlers that then grow into grade school students who drive imaginary cars down the hallway while making engine sounds with their mouths end up seeing their world as adults through the view of a windshield? Nah nevermind, let's not delve into psychology here, it'd be a waste of time.
Anyway "dude," have you read many articles on this site? AT doesn't cater specifically to the audience you think it does and perceive that you fall within. In my opinion, that's one of the nice things about Anandtech. It's writers explore a wider range of technology in greater depth than do the dinosaurs of the desktop computer era that have yet to realize that overclocking and tinkering is now well controlled by hardware manufacturers that manage even that experience to the point where it's basically a walled off sandbox that only leaves buyers with the impression their extra expenditure is giving them something more rather than genuinely rewarding them with something worthwhile.
I used to liquid cool and overclock, until a tiny leak destroyed a motherboard and CPU years ago.
These days my PCs are so fast that I don't need to overclock, but if I wanted to, I wouldn't even try it unless the cooling liquid has a low enough boiling point to be MUCH more effective than air-cooling, like the liquid cooling used in some tablets.
"like the liquid cooling used in some tablets." You mean vapor chamber technology, which has been in use for several years in the PC space already and is in pretty much no way comparable to water based liquid cooling which is typically meant when talking about liquid cooling? Totally different technologies which shouldn't be conflated at all.
And I forgot to add to your "MUCH more effective than air-cooling" point. If you indeed mean vapor chamber technology, that is only effective in drawing heat away from the chips that create the heat. That heat needs to be transferred to somewhere where it can be taken out of the system (unless the heatsink attached via vapor chamver is literally the size of the wall around your room) and that is usually done via air cooling, i.e. having a lot of metal fins oriented in a way that a fan can push or pull air through them to cool them. So nothing magical about it.
Totally. liquid cooling in the end functions the same way as air cooling, since the water has to be cooled down by air cooling. It only functions as a quick way to get rid of the heat at the source, but then you need radiators (like traditional heatsinks have directly on the CPU/GPU) to get rid of the heat from the water. But since custom liquid cooling is not restricted to the space around the CPU socket or on the graphics card, you can have much more cooling area. I myself have a 2x2x120mm radiator and another 200x200mm radiator, that is probably a bit more area than a high end air cooling CPU and GPU HSF have combined. But I also have that installed in a mATX case. People who go higher end have several 280, 360 radiators installed in their cases or they go 9x120 or 9x140 with external radiators. That is much more cooling area than traditional socket and graphics card coolers can provide.
You can... But you need to find a quiet water pump. It may also be quiet day one and get louder over time. The other thing is the water pump and the power control behind it introduce 2 additional potential fail points... It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense if building a new system today. Skylake CPU's are very cool and fan noise on them can be zero or near zero even if you are overlocking the crap out of it.
"custom loop cool" "Skylake CPU" No one in their right mind uses a custom liquid cooling solution just for the CPU. And since modern rigs can still easily produce 400 to 500W of excess heat if overclocked to their maximum (and that is just for the entry level enthusiast gear), water cooling still makes sense in those cases. Also, pumps have been nearly silent for years and tests have shown that high water flow isn't really necessary for good cooling temperatures. So something like a throttled Phobya DC12-220 will provide enough power to give you 80l/h at throttled speeds with a CPU+GPU+2 radiators setup and run silently if you decouple it from the case and dampen it with rubber. How does a WC setup get louder over time and air cooling does not? Mine does get slightly worse performance after a few months of not cleaning the radiator fans. But the same is true of air cooling. That's what a vacuum and compressed air is for. If you are talking about having gunk in your coolers, that shouldn't happen if you set it up right. I've had a custom WC setup for nearly 6 years now, I've changed the graphics cards one and the cpu/MoBo once and cleaned everything when I did that. First time I had some gunk in the coolers which reduced the flow rate (I didn't use the right ratio for the water additives). Second time I had some gunk but no reduction in flow rate. Now I've not touched it for over a year and the flow rate is steady.
"Can you make a custom loop cool better AND be quieter than a high end air tower?" Just because it is posted below this review, does not mean you should ignore what he actually asked.
An Aquacomputer D5 paired with an Aquaero 6 and an Aqualis reservoir is silent. On my 5930k I can turn the pump down to 25% and my fans down to 500rpm and you can't hear a thing, it's quieter than my fridge freezer near the PC which is further away. I do have 2x 480mm 60mm radiators though.
I used to follow every and latest cooling tech throughout the years. For desktop cooling, it is as simple as having more surface area, radiator or heatsink. You can also effectively have a larger surface area there's a faster flow of air using faster, louder fans. For your question, having a large radiator beats a smaller air solution.
These days though, it doesn't mean much anymore as Intel CPUs are focused on lower TDP's. AIO coolers should focus their money and energy now on GPUs as it still has huge cooling requirements.
I've used quite a lot of watercooling gear and actually own quite a few Alphacool products. 6 radiators from 360mm to 480mm at the least. I think the company is overlooked a lot but the products they offer are sound. I'm not sure about their All-In-One coolers but as a long term watercoooling part provider I would trust them more than brands with no experience.
P.S I trust Alphacool far more than say.. EKWB.. that company has had so many scandals that it tried to brush under the rug and even blamed its customers for its manufacturing failures.
Ouch. How did EKWB, a huge brand in terms of custom water-cooling, release a product that leaks more often than a Corsair kit, which came from Asetek anyways?
Exciting to see Alpha keep going. Alpha was the Beatles of cooling in the 90's. I am sure Anand remember. Alpha said "adios" to the "default" cooling from Intel or Amd. I bet it is an excellent product. My brain does not have as much time for the games anymore, but I felt I had to write something positive coming from my memories. They inspired Thermalright!
It's nice that AT now uses a heating plate setup to test coolers. I'd like to see some line graphs next, even if it doesn't include direct comparisons to other coolers, it still shows how performance increases with ramping RPMs.
Also some on the BOX information, like the wattage of Pump and Fans would be nice, after all these AIO plumbing solutions consume more electricity in idle than a CPU at this point!
Is there any info on the MTTF.
Do they throttle down when my CPU runs 0.8 GHz and 0.8 V or they still continue to tirelessly push liquid in a circle? How do you set up a FAN profile considering the delay, that is inherent to any water based system.
Will we ever get apples to apples comparisons, is it possible to fix other meaningful variables than Wattage (and even less meaningful like FAN Voltage), for instance compare different noise at the same thermal resistance or compare thermal resistance at a constant dBA level?
Okay so if we assume modern CPUs don't require as much cooling and air coolers can be roughly as effective as liquid AIO options. Also GPUs should potentially be the focus of our cooling setup.
Given this is there any benefit to the fact that you can arrange the AIO cooler to vent the warm air directly or of the case therefore reducing the ambient temp in the case and enabling the rest of the case ventilation to better cool the graphics card(s)?
Wouldn't this be a more cost effective option than buying water cooled GPUs given that AIO options are widely available and aren't too much of a cost increase?
For example I read a bit around running graphics cards in SLI and there are documented performance improvements when 1. The cards are spaced more widely and 2. One is a blower and one open air (as long as they are arranged correctly).
This suggests that ambient case temperature around the cards affects performance. Surely since an AIO cooler vents heat out rather than in there could be some benefits to the GPU From water cooling the GPU for less money than upgrading to a water chilled GPU?
Edit: I'm typing on a tablet and autocorrect screwed me.
Last sentence should hypothesise there's a benefit to the GPU From water cooling the CPU and that this might be more cost effective than water cooling the GPUs themselves.
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MobiusPizza - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
The author says this cooler has best noise/thermal performance ratio, but looking at the graphs the CoolerMaster H110 seems to have both lower noise level and lower thermal resistance?retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Yeah, I am really not getting the need for water cooling these days. Today's Core i5/i7 CPU run extremely cool... Even if you are overclocking, there are little to no benefits of using water. It adds complexity with no benefit. I have a Core i5 Skylake with a BeQuiet shadow rock 2 cooler, and I dont even plug in the fan at all. I can run prime - 100% CPU utilization for hours and hours with no fan at all and it doesn't even get warm, not even a little... and I live in Arizona and its summer. There just isnt a need for water anymore, even if you are overclocking the hell out of it.nightbringer57 - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Think about people still rocking a good old FX8350 like me ;)And AIO watercooling still happens to be competitive in high perf / small cases (typically mini ITX) setups, where clearance around the CPU is often very limited (typically, the PSU is in the way and forbids anything but very low-profile coolers), but can fit 1 or 2 12cm fans.
retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Agreed, if you have an AMD CPU, you can benefit from water cooling. Some high end video cards as well... but AMD CPU's and high end video cards get hot as hell. My comment was on Intel CPU's. I would have a hard time recommending anyone buy an AMD CPU these days, regardless of the cooling used. Hopefully the upcoming Zen processor changes that. It would be great to go AMD again if they can be competitive.nightbringer57 - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
edit: and Intel power consumption climbs up if you get into the more high-end platforms (like the X79/X99 platforms). Especially on tinier mainboards (think: mini ITX X99 ones) where you don't have standard cooler mounting holes but the special I-can't-remember-the-name ones. In those cases, big coolers don't fit. But a waterblock happily does.retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
I dont know... My core i5 6600k cooled as described above is a Mini itx case. Even if it were a smaller case, with no room for a huge tall cooler, there are options that work great.nightbringer57 - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
It depends on your case.And as explained, your i5 is not realy an "enthusiast" CPU, even if it's a great CPU in itself.
And the options that work great in more confined cases... Do not work quite as great as your typical AIO watercooling system, even if those have difficulties getting significantly better results than average-to-high-end aircooling systems.
It's a niche, yes. But I wouldn't say this niche doesn't exist.
retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Agreed, in some cases water would be better, AIO cases is a good example... But if you buy an AIO with water cooling, it comes pre-built and you dont do anything with it... The product above would not be for that. Also, if you have an older system you want to keep and improve the old air cooler, it might be good too depending on what you have... I guess what I am getting at, is if you were putting together a new system as of today (as opposed to upgrading an older one) you would be better served to by a case and an air cooler. They have tons of options of all sizes. Let me put it another way, if were building a new system as of today and you chose parts (case and CPU) that would benefit from water cooling, you probably chose badly.nightbringer57 - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
When I say "AIO", I mean "AIO liquid cooler" (such as in this review), not "AIO computer" ;)And no, cases that cannot fit a good air rad (so limit the choice to either low profile rads or AIO liquid cooler) simply allow you to have a more compact PC, so they are not a bad choice, they answer different needs.
retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Got it... I am paying attention LOL ;) I do see your point, I just dont think alot of people have that need. Like I said, if today (and that today part is a key thing here) were building a system, I cant see picking any case and CPU that would require something like the product above. If you are into massive overclocking, a tiny mini ITX case that cant fit a normal size air cooler probably isnt the best choice. There are plenty of mini ITX cases that can fit air coolers of any size and need. If you are overclocking and need something really small that cant fit a full size air cooler, OK... But if that is the case someone chose, where would they put the radiator? I know there are answers to that question and ways to do it, but extreme niche is what I am hearing.b4bblefish - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
No compact ITX case can support a full cooler so the performance of having the closed loop coolers is amazing compared to low profile air.retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Agreed, but I guess my point is any compact Mini ITX case can fit an air cooler that is very capable. There are also plenty of good Mini ITX cases that fit full size coolers. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...Stuka87 - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
They may run cool at stock speeds, but water cooling is very nice for over clocking. My 4.5GHz 4690K very rarely goes over 55C.retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Yes, but most of todays high end air coolers are just as capable and they do it without adding the need for water, the placement of a radiator or the additional potential fail-point (and noise point) of a water pump.retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
/edit - just as capable even when overclocking.ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Noise is no longer a concern with Gen5 Asetek.Here's a 120mm rad with 2 fans....5C cooler than the Noctua NH-U14S and STILL 0.1dB quieter than Noctua.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
Asetek Gen5 is what AIO CLCs were meant to be...
r3loaded - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Yeah, the Noctua NH-U14S cools just as well as the best AIO water coolers, but beats them by being much quieter on top of that since there's no pump noise. Zero risk of leaks is a bonus too!retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Exactly... Not just the Noctua, pretty much any high end air cooler equals, if not outperforms water on todays CPU's, even when overclocking.ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
You are far behind the times. :(http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
That was in February, dude.
AnnonymousCoward - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
I use a NH-U14S with an OC'd 6700K that runs all 4 cores at 4GHz. The highest temp I can hit with any stress test is about 30C over ambient (~55C).This AT review had a noise floor of 30 dBA, while the Noctua with its adapter maxes out at 19 dBA according to their spec (and is far lower using PWM). I have to doubt a water cooler can get anywhere near this low, which is critical for my silent box.
ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
You're behind. :( Already a 120mm rad with 2 fans is both 5C cooler and 0.1dB quieter than your Noctua NH-U14S.http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
FWIW, I also have a NH-U14S. Noctua buddies! :D
ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Nope. You are stuck in 2014. :( Gen5 Asetek is very good.5C cooler than the NH-U14S and 0.1db quieter. Maybe has other flaws...but it's not noise!
ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Forgot the damn link:http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
ikjadoon - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
LOL. Using water-cooling on a CPU? You all gobbled up the marketing; you still believe in in 1990s ATX case design.GPUs need the water, not the CPU. 250W+ on load, using 9cm fans? Average load temps in the 70s with overclocking and overvoltage? Right, yes, put the water cooler on the CPU. :p
Abandon ATX cooling assumptions; it was meant for cooling Pentium 4's and 3.5" spindle disks.
wylie102 - Monday, August 29, 2016 - link
From what I've read you are right about this. My question would be - given that air CPU coolers vent/radiate their hot air into the case, as do graphics cards (open air designs at least) would it not be beneficial to have an AIO liquid cooler drawing in air from the case (it being warm shouldn't affect the CPU cooling too much as like you said, most units are more than capable) and venting it out of the case?Would this not provide a benefit to the temp of the case and therefore the cooling abilities of the graphics card (particularly if running SLI)? And doesn't it make sense to have the CPU do this given that cooling options are much more widely available for them and at less of a premium than GPU water cooling?
Hxx - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
AIO coolers are still very much needed these days especially in a smaller form factor where air flow is not as great as in a larger case. I personally think that air coolers have reached their EOL. There is no need for a big chunk of metal to sit on top of your motherboard especially when nowadays you can buy an excellent AIO that is reasonably priced, quiet, cools better, and looks aesthetically more pleasing, and its painless to install.there used to be a time when AIOs used to be so much more money, kind of like how it is now if you want to jump into a custom loop. There is a price to performance ratio that needs to be addressed. But as far as closed loops, some of them are almost just as inexpensive as an air cooler and providing much more benefits.
retrospooty - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
I dont think so... When talking about building a new system, we are talking Intel Skylake CPU. Anything running a Skylake is already cool as hell. There are some great small form factor cases and premade systems, as small as Lenovo Tiny Desktop that are running quad core i5 and i7 desktop processors. They are a little over 1 inch thick and dont even get hot. You would only need it if you had both a really thin/small case AND you were significantly overclocking it... Now if you bought a good enough motherboard to significantly overclock it, what case are you getting that is too small to fit a decent air cooler, but big enough where it can still fit a decent power supply that can handle significant overclocking and even a small AIO water cooler? Where is the radiator in this setup? Is it outside the case?ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
...there are strong ITX overclocking motherboards. You don't need 1kW to OC; even SFX PSUs are in the 700W range, more than enough for dual-GPU OC + 8-core CPU OC.retrospooty - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
I get that, but still what is the point? If you are overclokcing to that level, you probably arent using a tiny case. If you are, that fine, but again I ask - Where is the radiator in this setup? Is it outside the case?Sushisamurai - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link
I'm running a tri-fire and 6core CPU. I should have a custom loop on the GPU's, but... whatever, they're too old now to drop that much money into them. Full load is close to 1000W - it's potentially a lot of heat, but radiator's are in the case, with a lot of airflow. GPU's hit 80 degrees and CPU's @60.Sushisamurai - Sunday, August 7, 2016 - link
I think mainstream computers/CPU's don't need liquid, at all. If you're running an enthusiast build/HEDT then I think it's almost necessary. My CPU draws almost 230W at full load - I didn't bother putting an air cooler for noise issues.rhysiam - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
"I personally think that air coolers have reached their EOL. There is no need for a big chunk of metal to sit on top of your motherboard especially when nowadays you can buy an excellent AIO that is reasonably priced, quiet, cools better, and looks aesthetically more pleasing, and its painless to install"I can't agree with you at all on this. If we consider the three key metrics we can quantify being price, noise and thermal performance; air coolers objectively beat AIO water coolers by a significant margin. Entry level water coolers like the H60 are more expensive, hotter and louder than a wide range of air coolers, and perform terribly compared to similarly priced air towers (H60 prices take you into mid-range air cooler territory). Once you move up a tier to high end air coolers like the NH-D15, you need to spend far more money to get a similarly performing AIO. There are 240mm closed loop water coolers that appear to offer superior thermals for close to the $100 mark, but they do so by using hair-dryer like fans. If you want D15 performance from water and care at all about noise levels, you need to be prepared to spend a lot of money.
There are absolutely benefits to AIO water coolers: stress-free portability, RAM compatibility and potential to use in smaller cases. But, if you care primarily about getting the highest performing and quietest CPU cooler for your dollar, air still wins every time.
Hxx - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
I bought an H55 for $25, an H110 for $55, and H100i gtx for $75, a thermaltake water 2.0 performer for $20, a thermaltake 240mm water 2.0 for about $50...over the past 4 or so years. Yes not everyday prices, but newegg sales, microcenter open boxes, etc. Like I said, no need for an air cooler anymore. Corsair even goes as far as covering your components if your cooler for whatever reason breaks and takes some other components with it.The latest cooler I bought is the corsair h100i gtx for $75. My overclocked core i7 4770k 4.6ghz sits at 25C and 40ish when gaming in a corsair air 240 case. The pump is in "quiet mode". I can't hear the fans or the pump so I m happy. Also $75 is not a lot of money for a CPU cooler when a high end air cooler is almost just as much.
ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Wrong. You need to update to Gen5 Asetek.http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
$25 cheaper than the NH-D15, quieter than the NH-U14S, and 5C cooler than the NH-U14S.
Keep up with reviews, dude.
rhysiam - Wednesday, August 3, 2016 - link
So this Eteknix review paints quite a different picture of that cooler you linked: http://www.eteknix.com/arctic-liquid-freezer-120-a...A full 14 degrees hotter than the D15 on an OC'd CPU (3570K) at 1.35V. Acoustics are still great, but temps, while fine, are hardly world beating. In fact they suggest 1.35V on an i5 is asking a bit too much of this 120mm cooler.
My issue with the HardOCP review is that the biggest load they put that cooler under is a 4.4Ghz OC on a 4770K at a measly 1.25V. That's just not enough to push any half decent cooler. Obviously it's got a great price and is really quiet, so would be a good choice for lots of people looking for a mild OC, but if all you want is a 1.25V mild OC, another valid option would be a cheap air cooler for $25?
I'm not saying AIO coolers don't have a place, clearly they do. But to say they make air coolers "EOL" is just not accurate IMHO.
Also, maybe ditch the BM next time? I expect better from comments here at Anandtech.
letmepicyou - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
What you're missing about water cooling might be the fact that water cooling setups are WAY more convenient than some of the better air solutions out there. I can show you a nook in my one cupboard where I have some of the best air coolers around (Tuniq Tower, Antec CNPS 10X, Thermalright Silver Arrow, the list goes on). The problem with air? First is the weight it puts on the motherboard (which is a particular concern if you move your computer regularly). Second is the fact many high-end air coolers interfere with the ram slots, depending on the cooler / motherboard combo you happen to be using, and whether or not your ram happens to have taller than average heat sinks.The perfect solution? An AIW water cooling setup. There is no motherboard stress worth mentioning, and I have GOBS of clearance for literally any ram I choose to use, regardless of where or how it's oriented on the board. I have a pretty stout system (i7 4790k, stock clocks) but it's not always about overclocking ability or raw cooling potential, sometimes it's about pure logistics.
rhysiam - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
While water may be more convenient, it's also more expensive for a similar performance tier. And it's not like low profile RAM is hard to find or has any real drawbacks. Air certainly puts more weight on the motherboard, but it doesn't introduce liquid to the system. So while water is likely safer for a portable system, I'd suggest air is the safer bet for a static PC.Clearly you'd prefer to spend more or sacrifice cooling performance for system portability and RAM compatibility... that's fine, there's heaps of situations where that's the right call. But there's undoubtedly a place on the market for the superior performance per dollar that air coolers offer.
retrospooty - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
" Second is the fact many high-end air coolers interfere with the ram slots, depending on the cooler / motherboard combo you happen to be using"- You may have a point if you are upgrading an older system and therefore stuck with particular existing parts, but if you are building a new system you can build a better cooled system for cheaper with a good air cooler.
zodiacfml - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
That gave me an idea for a future build. I guess, water cooling should be focusing on graphics these days.ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Yup. I'm slapping this AIO CLC on my next GPU: cheaper than NH-U14S, cooler than a NH-U14S, and quieter than a NH-U14S--all at the same time! :DThe reign of air coolers is about to end with Gen5 Asetek.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
This idea just doesn't die.Quieter and cooler and cheaper than a Noctua NH-U14S.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
Azune - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
He should have said best noise/thermal performance for 240mm radiators. Because larger radiator and larger fans will always win in this metric. (H110 is a 280mm)BrokenCrayons - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
Pass on the water cooling. I don't like the idea of mixing liquid and electricity for no tangible benefit over the HSF that was included in the box. Yes, sure the temperature of the processor is lower, but who cares really? As long as it's not above the manufacturer's spec, temperature makes literally no difference to me. I can understand wanting to cut back on noise and that might warrant an upgraded air cooler over the retail boxed one, but even then, a lot of the reasoning behind that ignores ambient noise of HVAC, other people, and blaring televisions which would drown out the relatively small amount of noise from a stock cooler.ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Why are you even reading this review? LOL. It's like a guy who drives a Camry walking into an aftermarket parts store: "A turbocharger? I don't like the idea of mixing more air. Sure, the horsepower is higher, but who cares really?"Wrong review and maybe even wrong website, dude. :D
BrokenCrayons - Wednesday, August 3, 2016 - link
What is it with men and comparing everything to a car? Is it really that ingrained into the brain wiring that guys who were given little toys to push around as toddlers that then grow into grade school students who drive imaginary cars down the hallway while making engine sounds with their mouths end up seeing their world as adults through the view of a windshield? Nah nevermind, let's not delve into psychology here, it'd be a waste of time.Anyway "dude," have you read many articles on this site? AT doesn't cater specifically to the audience you think it does and perceive that you fall within. In my opinion, that's one of the nice things about Anandtech. It's writers explore a wider range of technology in greater depth than do the dinosaurs of the desktop computer era that have yet to realize that overclocking and tinkering is now well controlled by hardware manufacturers that manage even that experience to the point where it's basically a walled off sandbox that only leaves buyers with the impression their extra expenditure is giving them something more rather than genuinely rewarding them with something worthwhile.
BrokenCrayons - Wednesday, August 3, 2016 - link
What is it with men and comparing everything to a car? Is it really that ingrained into the brain wiring that guys who were given little toys to push around as toddlers that then grow into grade school students who drive imaginary cars down the hallway while making engine sounds with their mouths end up seeing their world as adults through the view of a windshield? Nah nevermind, let's not delve into psychology here, it'd be a waste of time.Anyway "dude," have you read many articles on this site? AT doesn't cater specifically to the audience you think it does and perceive that you fall within. In my opinion, that's one of the nice things about Anandtech. It's writers explore a wider range of technology in greater depth than do the dinosaurs of the desktop computer era that have yet to realize that overclocking and tinkering is now well controlled by hardware manufacturers that manage even that experience to the point where it's basically a walled off sandbox that only leaves buyers with the impression their extra expenditure is giving them something more rather than genuinely rewarding them with something worthwhile.
JeffFlanagan - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
I used to liquid cool and overclock, until a tiny leak destroyed a motherboard and CPU years ago.These days my PCs are so fast that I don't need to overclock, but if I wanted to, I wouldn't even try it unless the cooling liquid has a low enough boiling point to be MUCH more effective than air-cooling, like the liquid cooling used in some tablets.
Death666Angel - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
"like the liquid cooling used in some tablets."You mean vapor chamber technology, which has been in use for several years in the PC space already and is in pretty much no way comparable to water based liquid cooling which is typically meant when talking about liquid cooling? Totally different technologies which shouldn't be conflated at all.
Death666Angel - Monday, August 1, 2016 - link
And I forgot to add to your "MUCH more effective than air-cooling" point. If you indeed mean vapor chamber technology, that is only effective in drawing heat away from the chips that create the heat. That heat needs to be transferred to somewhere where it can be taken out of the system (unless the heatsink attached via vapor chamver is literally the size of the wall around your room) and that is usually done via air cooling, i.e. having a lot of metal fins oriented in a way that a fan can push or pull air through them to cool them. So nothing magical about it.maximumGPU - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
I'd appreciate if anyone can answer this:Can you make a custom loop cool better AND be quieter than a high end air tower?
Unfortunately I can only find contradicting opinions on this, anybody with direct experience cares to pitch in?
Death666Angel - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Totally. liquid cooling in the end functions the same way as air cooling, since the water has to be cooled down by air cooling. It only functions as a quick way to get rid of the heat at the source, but then you need radiators (like traditional heatsinks have directly on the CPU/GPU) to get rid of the heat from the water. But since custom liquid cooling is not restricted to the space around the CPU socket or on the graphics card, you can have much more cooling area. I myself have a 2x2x120mm radiator and another 200x200mm radiator, that is probably a bit more area than a high end air cooling CPU and GPU HSF have combined. But I also have that installed in a mATX case. People who go higher end have several 280, 360 radiators installed in their cases or they go 9x120 or 9x140 with external radiators. That is much more cooling area than traditional socket and graphics card coolers can provide.retrospooty - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
You can... But you need to find a quiet water pump. It may also be quiet day one and get louder over time. The other thing is the water pump and the power control behind it introduce 2 additional potential fail points... It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense if building a new system today. Skylake CPU's are very cool and fan noise on them can be zero or near zero even if you are overlocking the crap out of it.Death666Angel - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
"custom loop cool" "Skylake CPU"No one in their right mind uses a custom liquid cooling solution just for the CPU. And since modern rigs can still easily produce 400 to 500W of excess heat if overclocked to their maximum (and that is just for the entry level enthusiast gear), water cooling still makes sense in those cases.
Also, pumps have been nearly silent for years and tests have shown that high water flow isn't really necessary for good cooling temperatures. So something like a throttled Phobya DC12-220 will provide enough power to give you 80l/h at throttled speeds with a CPU+GPU+2 radiators setup and run silently if you decouple it from the case and dampen it with rubber.
How does a WC setup get louder over time and air cooling does not? Mine does get slightly worse performance after a few months of not cleaning the radiator fans. But the same is true of air cooling. That's what a vacuum and compressed air is for. If you are talking about having gunk in your coolers, that shouldn't happen if you set it up right.
I've had a custom WC setup for nearly 6 years now, I've changed the graphics cards one and the cpu/MoBo once and cleaned everything when I did that. First time I had some gunk in the coolers which reduced the flow rate (I didn't use the right ratio for the water additives). Second time I had some gunk but no reduction in flow rate. Now I've not touched it for over a year and the flow rate is steady.
retrospooty - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
I would agree, but it is said in relation to the article above on the Eisbaer 240 "CPU" AIO Liquid Cooler.Death666Angel - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
"Can you make a custom loop cool better AND be quieter than a high end air tower?"Just because it is posted below this review, does not mean you should ignore what he actually asked.
retrospooty - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
I am not sure what you are getting at... I answered his question. He said nothing about a video card, you said that after my post.HomeworldFound - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
An Aquacomputer D5 paired with an Aquaero 6 and an Aqualis reservoir is silent. On my 5930k I can turn the pump down to 25% and my fans down to 500rpm and you can't hear a thing, it's quieter than my fridge freezer near the PC which is further away. I do have 2x 480mm 60mm radiators though.HomeworldFound - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
and 980 SLI. Building a new rig now.ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Dude, you can buy an AIO CLC that does that, LOL.http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/11/arctic_c...
zodiacfml - Tuesday, August 9, 2016 - link
I used to follow every and latest cooling tech throughout the years. For desktop cooling, it is as simple as having more surface area, radiator or heatsink. You can also effectively have a larger surface area there's a faster flow of air using faster, louder fans. For your question, having a large radiator beats a smaller air solution.These days though, it doesn't mean much anymore as Intel CPUs are focused on lower TDP's.
AIO coolers should focus their money and energy now on GPUs as it still has huge cooling requirements.
HomeworldFound - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
I've used quite a lot of watercooling gear and actually own quite a few Alphacool products. 6 radiators from 360mm to 480mm at the least. I think the company is overlooked a lot but the products they offer are sound. I'm not sure about their All-In-One coolers but as a long term watercoooling part provider I would trust them more than brands with no experience.HomeworldFound - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
P.S I trust Alphacool far more than say.. EKWB.. that company has had so many scandals that it tried to brush under the rug and even blamed its customers for its manufacturing failures.ikjadoon - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Ouch. How did EKWB, a huge brand in terms of custom water-cooling, release a product that leaks more often than a Corsair kit, which came from Asetek anyways?http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ekwb-issues-recal...
Do you have any info on blaming consumers? I can't seem to find that online.
Frangelina - Tuesday, August 2, 2016 - link
Exciting to see Alpha keep going. Alpha was the Beatles of cooling in the 90's. I am sure Anand remember. Alpha said "adios" to the "default" cooling from Intel or Amd. I bet it is an excellent product. My brain does not have as much time for the games anymore, but I felt I had to write something positive coming from my memories. They inspired Thermalright!know of fence - Thursday, August 4, 2016 - link
It's nice that AT now uses a heating plate setup to test coolers. I'd like to see some line graphs next, even if it doesn't include direct comparisons to other coolers, it still shows how performance increases with ramping RPMs.Also some on the BOX information, like the wattage of Pump and Fans would be nice, after all these AIO plumbing solutions consume more electricity in idle than a CPU at this point!
Is there any info on the MTTF.
Do they throttle down when my CPU runs 0.8 GHz and 0.8 V or they still continue to tirelessly push liquid in a circle? How do you set up a FAN profile considering the delay, that is inherent to any water based system.
Will we ever get apples to apples comparisons, is it possible to fix other meaningful variables than Wattage (and even less meaningful like FAN Voltage), for instance compare different noise at the same thermal resistance or compare thermal resistance at a constant dBA level?
wylie102 - Monday, August 29, 2016 - link
Okay so if we assume modern CPUs don't require as much cooling and air coolers can be roughly as effective as liquid AIO options. Also GPUs should potentially be the focus of our cooling setup.Given this is there any benefit to the fact that you can arrange the AIO cooler to vent the warm air directly or of the case therefore reducing the ambient temp in the case and enabling the rest of the case ventilation to better cool the graphics card(s)?
Wouldn't this be a more cost effective option than buying water cooled GPUs given that AIO options are widely available and aren't too much of a cost increase?
For example I read a bit around running graphics cards in SLI and there are documented performance improvements when 1. The cards are spaced more widely and 2. One is a blower and one open air (as long as they are arranged correctly).
This suggests that ambient case temperature around the cards affects performance. Surely since an AIO cooler vents heat out rather than in there could be some benefits to the GPU From water cooling the GPU for less money than upgrading to a water chilled GPU?
wylie102 - Monday, August 29, 2016 - link
Edit: I'm typing on a tablet and autocorrect screwed me.Last sentence should hypothesise there's a benefit to the GPU From water cooling the CPU and that this might be more cost effective than water cooling the GPUs themselves.
Thoughts on this?
SeanJ76 - Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - link
Hyper Evo best $25 coolerElcs - Saturday, November 26, 2016 - link
No 120mm and 360mm review?